I'm sure he knows this well, by this point. and he said, Brian, don't you dare. Do you think that the Christians as a nascent cult adapted a highly effective psycho technology that was rattling . And does it line up with the promise from John's gospel that anyone who drinks this becomes instantly immortal? This an absolute masterclass on why you must know your identity and goals before forming a habit, what the best systems are for habit. BRIAN MURARESKU: Great question. BRIAN MURARESKU: I'm asked this question, I would say, in pretty much every interview I've done since late September. Now, I've had experiences outside the Eucharist that resonate with me. And if it's one thing Catholicism does very, very well, it's contemplative mysticism. Here's your Western Eleusis. So how does Dionysian revelries get into this picture? And how do we-- when the pharmaceutical industry and when these retreat centers begin to open and begin to proliferate, how do we make this sacred? These mysteries had at their center a sacrament called kykeon, which offered a vision of the mysteries of life and death. So, like, they're wonderstruck, or awestruck by their libations and their incense. BRIAN MURARESKU: I wish I could answer that question. 25:15 Dionysus and the "pagan continuity hypothesis" 30:54 Gnosticism and Early Christianity . We know from the literature hundreds of years beforehand that in Elis, for example, in the Western Peloponnese, on the same Epiphany-type timeline, January 5, January 6, the priests would walk into the temple of Dionysus, leave three basins of water, the next morning they're miraculously transformed into wine. There he is. Which is really weird, because that's how the same Dina Bazer, the same atheist in the psilocybin trials, described her insight. Here's the proof of concept. What the Greeks were actually saying there is that it was barley infected with ergot, which is this natural fungus that infects cereal crops. And if there's historical precedent for it, all the more so. But things that sound intensely powerful. And I don't know what that looks like. If you are drawn to psychedelics, in my mind, it means you're probably drawn to contemplative mysticism. Amongst all the mystery religions, Eleusis survives. CHARLES STANG: Yeah. According to Muraresku, this work, which "presents the pagan continuity hypothesis with a psychedelic twist," addresses two fundamental questions: "Before the rise of Christianity, did the Ancient Greeks consume a secret psychedelic sacrament during their most famous and well-attended religious rituals? CHARLES STANG: All right. "The Jews" are not after Ye. And the truth is that this is a project that goes well beyond ancient history, because Brian is convinced that what he has uncovered has profound implications for the future of religion, and specifically, the future of his own religion, Roman Catholicism. They followed Platonic (and other Greeks) philosophy. The (Mistaken) Conspiracy Theory: In the Late Middle Ages, religious elites created a new, and mistaken, intellectual framework out of Christian heresy and theology concerning demons. Just imagine, I have to live with me. Here's the big question. It's not the case in the second century. And you're right. So the Eastern Aegean. It is not psychedelics. He was greatly influenced by Sigmund Freud (1940) who viewed an infant's first relationship - usually with the mother - as "the prototype of all later love-relations". This two-part discussion between Muraresku and Dr. Plotkin examines the role psychedelics have played in the development of Western civilization. Little attempt has been made, however, to bridge the gap between \"pagan\" and \"Christian\" or to examine late antique, Christian attitudes toward sexuality and marriage from the viewpoint of the \"average\" Christian. There's John Marco Allegro claiming that there was no Jesus, and this was just one big amanita muscaria cult. BRIAN MURARESKU: Now we're cooking with grease, Dr. Stang. Are they rolling their eyes, or are you getting sort of secretive knowing nods of agreement? So it is already happening. He was wronged by individuals, allegedly. And there are legitimate scholars out there who say, because John wanted to paint Jesus in the light of Dionysus, present him as the second coming of this pagan God. And I answer it differently every single time. [1] According to this theory, older adults try to maintain this continuity of lifestyle by adapting strategies that are connected to their past experiences. But clearly, when you're thinking about ancient Egypt or elsewhere, there's definitely a funerary tradition. We have plays like the Bacchi from Euripides, where we can piece together some of this. They were relevant to me in going down this rabbit hole. Now, what's curious about this is we usually have-- Egypt plays a rather outsized role in our sense of early Christianity because-- and other adjacent or contemporary religious and philosophical movements, because everything in Egypt is preserved better than anywhere else in the Mediterranean. So throughout the book, you make the point that ancient beer and wine are not like our beer and wine. There have been breakthroughs, too, which no doubt kept Brian going despite some skepticism from the academy, to say the least. Books about pagan continuity hypothesis? So Dionysus is not the god of alcohol. It was one of the early write-ups of the psilocybin studies coming out of Johns Hopkins. Maybe there's some residual fear that's been built up in me. Well, let's get into it then. We see lots of descriptions of this in the mystical literature with which you're very familiar. So there's lots of interesting details here that filter through. 40:15 Witches, drugs, and the Catholic Church . Because ergot is just very common. They did not. Do you think that by calling the Eucharist a placebo that you're likely to persuade them? But what we do know about the wine of the time is that it was routinely mixed with plants and herbs and potentially fungi. His aim when he set out on this journey 12 years ago was to assess the validity of a rather old, but largely discredited hypothesis, namely, that some of the religions of the ancient Mediterranean, perhaps including Christianity, used a psychedelic sacrament to induce mystical experiences at the border of life and death, and that these psychedelic rituals were just the tip of the iceberg, signs of an even more ancient and pervasive religious practice going back many thousands of years. I was not going to put a book out there that was sensationalist. Newsweek calls him "the world's best human guinea pig," and The New York Times calls him "a cross between Jack Welch and a Buddhist monk." In this show, he deconstructs world-class . I mean, in the absence of the actual data, that's my biggest question. What is it about that formula that captures for you the wisdom, the insight that is on offer in this ancient ritual, psychedelic or otherwise? That was the question for me. Mona Sobhani, PhD Retweeted. CHARLES STANG: So in some sense, you're feeling almost envy for the experiences on psychedelics, which is to say you've never experienced the indwelling of Christ or the immediate knowledge of your immortality in the sacrament. I think the wine certainly does. I'm going to stop asking my questions, although I have a million more, as you well know, and instead try to ventriloquist the questions that are coming through at quite a clip through the Q&A. So even from the very beginning, it wasn't just barley and water. And so how far should this investigation go? So the big question is, what kind of drug was this, if it was a drug? Jerry Brown wrote a good review that should be read to put the book in its proper place. Now, I think you answered that last part. would certainly appreciate. . And there were probably other Eleusises like that to the east. The continuity hypothesis of dreams suggests that the content of dreams are largely continuous with waking concepts and concerns of the dreamer. I'm going to come back to that idea of proof of concept. They linked the idea of witches to an imagined organized sect which was a danger to the Christian commonwealth. There's a good number of questions that are very curious why you are insisting on remaining a psychedelic virgin. Just from reading Dioscorides and reading all the different texts, the past 12 years have absolutely transformed the way I think about wine. When Irenaeus is talking about [SPEAKING GREEK], love potions, again, we have no idea what the hell he's talking about. But unfortunately, it doesn't connect it to Christianity. There's also this hard evidence that comes out of an archaeological site outside of Pompeii, if I have it correct. What does ergotized beer in Catalonia have anything to do with the Greek mysteries at Eleusis? Hard archaeobotanical, archaeochemical data, I haven't seen it. But this clearly involved some kind of technical know-how and the ability to concoct these things that, in order to keep them safe and efficacious, would not have been very widespread, I don't think. I mean, I think the book makes it clear. And I guess my biggest question, not necessarily for you, but the psychedelic community, for what it's worth, or those who are interested in this stuff is how do we make this experience sacred? CHARLES STANG: Well, Mr, Muraresku, you are hedging your bets here in a way that you do not necessarily hedge your bets in the book. It is my great pleasure to welcome Brian Muraresku to the Center. You become one with Christ by drinking that. Like in a retreat pilgrimage type center, or maybe within palliative care. Part 1 Brian C. Muraresku: The Eleusinian Mysteries, Discovering the Divine, The Immortality Key, The Pagan Continuity Hypothesis and the Hallucinogenic Origins of Religion 3 days ago Plants of the Gods: S4E1. And maybe therein we do since the intimation of immortality. Do the drugs, Dr. Stang? Because very briefly, I think Brian and others have made a very strong case that these things-- this was a biotechnology that was available in the ancient world. I appreciate this. But what I see are potential and possibilities and things worthy of discussions like this. The Immortality Key has its shortcomings. So in the mountains and forests from Greece to Rome, including the Holy Land and Galilee. Now, I have no idea where it goes from here, or if I'll take it myself. Brought to you by I'll invite him to think about the future of religion in light of all this. It's not just Cana. He's talking about kind of psychedelic wine. Now, I've never done them myself, but I have talked to many, many people who've had experience with psychedelics. So what have you learned about the Eleusinian mysteries in particular since Ruck took this up, and what has convinced you that Ruck's hypothesis holds water? And I want to say to those who are still assembled here that I'm terribly sorry that we can't get to all your questions. And as a lawyer, I know what is probative and what's circumstantial evidence, and I just-- I don't see it there. Is there a smoking gun? It's funny to see that some of the first basilicas outside Rome are popping up here, and in and around Pompeii. I wonder if you're familiar with Wouter Hanegraaff at the University of Amsterdam. Did the potion at Eleusis change from generation to generation? And all along, I invite you all to pose questions to Brian in the Q&A function. There's some suggestive language in the pyramid texts, in the Book of the Dead and things of this nature. BRIAN MURARESKU: Good one. If the Dionysian one is psychedelic, does it really make its way into some kind of psychedelic Christianity? But what we do know is that their sacrament was wine and we know a bit more about the wine of antiquity, ancient Greek wine, than we can piece together from these nocturnal celebrations. CHARLES STANG: You know, Valentinus was almost elected bishop of Rome. He draws on the theory of "pagan continuity," which holds that early Christianity adopted . So the Greek god of wine, intoxication. 8 "The winds, the sea . So there's a whole slew of sites I want to test there. And that's where oversight comes in handy. So, although, I mean, and that actually, I'd like to come back to that, the notion of the, that not just the pagan continuity hypothesis, but the mystery continuity hypothesis through the Vatican. So at the very-- after the first half of the book is over, there's an epilogue, and I say, OK, here's the evidence. I want to thank you for your candor. So you lean on the good work of Harvard's own Arthur Darby Nock, and more recently, the work of Dennis McDonald at Claremont School of Theology, to suggest that the author of the Gospel of John deliberately paints Jesus and his Eucharist in the colors of Dionysus. I expect there will be. Well, the reason I mention Hippolytus and Marcus and focus on that in my evidence is because there's evidence of the Valentinians, who influenced Marcus, in and around Rome. And she talks about the visions that transformed the way she thinks about herself. This limestone altar tested positive for cannabis and frankincense that was being burned, they think, in a very ritualistic way. CHARLES STANG: My name is Charles Stang, and I'm the director of the Center for the Study of World Religions here at Harvard Divinity School. You also find a Greek hearth inside this sanctuary. I mean, this is what I want to do with some of my remaining days on this planet, is take a look at all these different theories. So listening right now, there's at least one orthodox priest, there's at least one Catholic priest, an Episcopalian, an Anglican, and several others with whom I've been talking in recent months. This book by Brian Muraresku, attempts to answer this question by delving into the history of ancient secret religions dating back thousands of years. And so I cite a Pew poll, for example, that says something like 69% of American Catholics do not believe in transubstantiation, which is the defining dogma of the church, the idea that the bread and wine literally becomes the flesh and blood. So again, that's February 22. So I'm trying to build the case-- and for some reason in my research, it kept coming back to Italy and Rome, which is why I focus on Hippolytus. So when you take a step back, as you well know, there was a Hellenic presence all over the ancient Mediterranean. BRIAN MURARESKU: Great question. Now, I mentioned that Brian and I had become friends. And I think we get hung up on the jargon. But the point being, the religion of brewing seems to pop up at the very beginning of civilization itself, or the very beginning of monumental engineering at this world's first sanctuary. Mark and Brian cover the Eleusinian Mysteries, the pagan continuity hypothesis, early Christianity, lessons from famed religious scholar Karen Armstrong, overlooked aspects of influential philosopher William James's career, ancient wine and ancient beer, experiencing the divine within us, the importance of "tikkun olam"repairing and . It still leaves an even bigger if, Dr. Stang, is which one is psychedelic? And I'll just list them out quickly. According to Muraresku, this work, BOOK REVIEW which "presents the pagan continuity hypothesis with a psychedelic twist," addresses two fundamental questions: "Before the rise of Christianity, did the Ancient Greeks consume a secret psychedelic sacrament during their most famous and well-attended religious rituals? So Gobekli Tepe, for those who don't know, is this site in southern Turkey on the border with Syria. I opened the speculation, Dr. Stang, that the Holy Grail itself could have been some kind of spiked concoction. Rather, Christian beliefs were gradually incorporated into the pagan customs that already existed there. There were formula. So how to put this? And they found this site, along with others around the Mediterranean. Then I see the mysteries of Dionysus as kind of the Burning Man or the Woodstock of the ancient world. So thank you, all who have hung with us. But so as not to babble on, I'll just say that it's possible that the world's first temple, which is what Gobekli Tepe is referred to as sometimes, it's possible the world's first temple was also the world's first bar. 13,000 years old. So I really follow the scholarship of Enriqueta Pons, who is the archaeologist on site there, at this Greek sanctuary that we're talking about in Catalonia, Mas Castellar des Pontos. I'm not sure many have. And so in my afterword, I present this as a blip on the archaeochemical radar. Brian launched the instant bestseller on the Joe Rogan Experience, and has now appeared on CNN, NPR, Sirius XM, Goop-- I don't even know what that is-- and The Weekly Dish with Andrew Sullivan. So can you reflect on the-- standing on the threshold of pharmaceutical companies taking control of this, how is that to be commended when the very people who have kept this alive would be pushed to the side in that move? What's significant about these features for our piecing together the ancient religion with no name? 36:57 Drug-spiked wine . But I think there's a decent scientific foothold to begin that work. OK, Brian, I invite you to join us now. At Cambridge University he worked in developmental biolo. And even Burkert, I think, calls it the most famous of the mystery rituals. "@BrianMuraresku with @DocMarkPlotkin The Eleusinian Mysteries, Discovering the Divine, The Immortality Key, The Pagan Continuity Hypothesis, Lessons from Scholar Karen Armstrong, and Much More" Please enjoy! But we at least have, again, the indicia of evidence that something was happening there. Rachel Peterson, who's well known to Brian and who's taken a lead in designing the series. #646: Brian C. Muraresku with Dr. Mark Plotkin The Eleusinian Mysteries, Discovering the Divine, The Immortality Key, The Pagan Continuity Hypothesis, Lessons from Scholar Karen Armstrong, and Much More So this whole water to wine thing was out there. To some degree, I think you're looking back to southern Italy from the perspective of the supremacy of Rome, which is not the case in the first century. Certainly these early churchmen used whatever they could against the forms of Christian practice they disapproved of, especially those they categorized as Gnostic. And the big question for me was what was that something else? But maybe you could just say something about this community in Catalonia. McGovern also finds wine from Egypt, for example, in 3150 BC, wine that is mixed with a number of interesting ingredients. You obviously think these are powerful substances with profound effects that track with reality. That is my dog Xena. What's different about the Dionysian mysteries, and what evidence, direct or indirect, do we have about the wine of Dionysus being psychedelic? And not least because if I were to do it, I'd like to do so in a deeply sacred ritual. He decides to get people even more drunk. CHARLES STANG: OK. You take a board corporate finance attorney, you add in lots of childhood hours watching Indiana Jones, lots of law school hours reading Dan Brown, you put it all together and out pops The Immortality Key. #646: Brian C. Muraresku with Dr. Mark Plotkin The Eleusinian Mysteries, Discovering the Divine, The Immortality Key, The Pagan Continuity Hypothesis, Lessons from Scholar Karen Armstrong, and Much More from The Tim Ferriss Show on Podchaser, aired Wednesday, 28th December 2022. But with what were they mixed, and to what effect? It was a pilgrimage site. The question is, what will happen in the future. So again, if there were an early psychedelic sacrament that was being suppressed, I'd expect that the suppressors would talk about it. So I point to that evidence as illustrative of the possibility that the Christians could, in fact, have gotten their hands on an actual wine. Tim Ferriss is a self-experimenter and bestselling author, best known for The 4-Hour Workweek, which has been translated into 40+ languages. We have an hour and a half together and I hope there will be time for Q&A and discussion. And it seems to me that if any of this is right, that whatever was happening in ancient Greece was a transformative experience for which a lot of thought and preparation went into. So don't feel like you have to go into great depth at this point. Because at my heart, I still consider myself a good Catholic boy. Which turns out, it may be they were. These were Greek-- I've seen them referred to as Greek Vikings by Peter Kingsley, Vikings who came from Ionia. Brian has been very busy taking his new book on the road, of course, all online, and we're very grateful to him for taking the time to join us this evening. And when we know so much about ancient wine and how very different it was from the wine of today, I mean, what can we say about the Eucharist if we're only looking at the texts? He calls it a drug against grief in Greek, [SPEAKING GREEK]. And I'm trying to reconcile that. And I think it's proof of concept-- just proof of concept-- for investing serious funding, and attention into the actual search for these kinds of potions. Not just in Italy, but as kind of the headquarters for the Mediterranean. And I think it's very important to be very honest with the reader and the audience about what we know and what we don't. So welcome to the fourth event in our yearlong series on psychedelics and the future of religion, co-sponsored by the Esalen Institute, the Riverstyx Foundation, and the Chacruna Institute for Psychedelic Plant Medicines. But I do want to push back a little bit on the elevation of this particular real estate in southern Italy. And I just happened to fall into that at the age of 14 thanks to the Jesuits, and just never left it behind.
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